FAKES, REPRODUCTION and FANTASY
Hopefully you may be able to use this page to identify a fake and save you a financial loss, or at least warn you of those blades that may not be what they are reported to be. The list is not comprehensive and relates only to those blades in my collection or those identified to me by fellow collectors.
As the value of some blades gets higher it becomes worth while for people to deliberately fake particularly valuable ones using added markings or converting others to resemble a more valuable one. I only include in these pieces which are deliberately made to deceive collectors. examples of this are :
Reproduction items are made to be replicas of valuable or collectable bayonets. These are not meant to deceive collectors rather to allow them to have a representative item in their collection that would otherwise be beyond their means to have (or is very rare), or for re-enactors or film work. Most reproductions are of items that have intrinsic display appeal, and are of sword type blades or historic items.
Many of these will come back on the market as an attempt to deceive people into believing that they are the real thing, especially the early ones which now have a substantial amount of aging to them. Examples of this:
-British 1870 ELCHO
-British Naval Boarding
-US Remington Socket
-UK Quillioned 1907
-UK Baker Sword
-UK Pritchard Green
-Various American Civil War blades
These are blades made up to represent blades that were never made. They come from the imagination of the maker but are based on models available at the time. They are usually only made in singletons or in very low numbers, as they are made for the maker or his client, they may or may not have been made to deceive collectors but were probably not. examples
If you have examples of fakes or know of any that are not mentioned on this page please let me know and I will include them
(more to come) Note:- click on image for larger version of images
UK No4 MkI - (Fake)
Machined from original No4 MkII's it is not that hard to identify these fakes.
No 4 fake (upper) made from Savage made No4 MkII (Savage mark still evident on button.
Comparison of Pommels, showing over large and inverted fake markings
Screw Driver point on fake blade, plus slightly shorter overall length
Poor quality of groove machining (ground) on fake
Again there is no scabbard to this bayonet. It would appear that this may be a Fantasy piece as opposed to a reproduction as I can find no reference to a blade like this, although there was a similar bayonet made for the Irish Constabulary with a different blade shape. The finish on this blade identifies it as a modern reproduction, the screws and fittings are poorly made and the "aging" shows too regular a pattern to impact marks.
Vivian Carbine Bayonet for the Vivian double barrelled carbine. Maybe this should hold the title of the first knife bayonet
modern stamps on pommel
Baker style bayonet mount and regular impact marks on modern made
An experimental semi automatic rifle trialed during the 20's used a reduced length 1907 pattern bayonet and scabbard. Fakes of this are available although often mis identified as fighting knives etc. the blade may have the wrong dates to be correct for the trial (should be pre 1924), and are typically 5mm short of the actual length of the true blade (165mm). Uses a cut down 1907 scabbard
Cut down 1907 Farquhar Hill Fake
UK No 5 MkI -FAKE
The first model of this bayonet came with the hilt panels attached by a single screw and are very rare. Fakes are easily made by replacing the grips with new ones with a single screw, without removing the grips you need to examine very carefully the grips and screw to ensure that they are original, if you can remove the grips then look for the presence of the original two screw holes that should not be there
Made from a Kukri blade and a Brown Bess socket welded together. This blade was originally shown in Watts and White in the 70's as a genuine article it was later shown to be a fake, that has since been reproduced. The real "Kukri" bladed bayonets have a much straighter blade and are heavily marked by the Nepalese
Kukri style bayonet
|Recently there has come onto the market a better reproduction of the Kukri bayonet, this one is close to the original in style etc. the biggest giveaway is the machined hatching and the welded socket. give this a suitable aging process and the unsuspecting woudl not doubt it.|
Modern copy of a Nepalese Kukhri bayonet, this is based on the real bayonet and not the fantasy piece found in Watts and White etc. Be wary of these coming on the market aged.
Points of note are machine cross hatching and welding on the shank
UK 1907 QUILLION -Reproduction/Fake
I have put down reproduction and fake as I believe that both version exist. Mine I believe to be a reproduction made for the film industry as opposed to a fake made to fool collectors. The Fake would be a pre 1913 made original that had originally been made with a quillion, that was reworked to replace the quillion that would have been removed during rework after 1913 (maybe you could call this a restoration). The points to look out for are:
Fake quillion 1907, based on a 1944 Admiralty contract blade (quillions ceased in 1913!) Possibly made for the film Gallipoli, as many were made for this film
WSC 1944 markings and quillion
Fake paratrooper bayonet, appears to attempt to be a Japanese type 100
Marked with 1917
and US marking
Scabbard is apparently marked with para wings over a star, not sure what the markings are meant to represent
Scabbard is also marked with a US-M8 marking. Amazing piece
A Chinese copy of the Arisaka, these are not the same as the communist era Arisaka's made in the old Japanese arsenals, they are very poor quality and have spurious copies of Japanese mainland arsenal marks
The following is based on information posted on the Yahoo club on Bayonet Collecting by collector Gammacoupe
The fake is blued. The Finns did not blue any M39 bayonets. Fake is 11.75 inches long, real one is 11.5. The locking bolt on fake doesn't fit the hole in the pommel anywhere near as well as the real one. The left side of the real ricasso is stamped O.Y.VELJEKSETKULMALAA.B. (note the 4 periods, after first 2 and last 2 letters). The fake doesn't have the periods, the letters are larger (the O and the B actually hang off either edge of the blade, the whole stamping is too long). The letters on the real one are both smaller and more distinct. The fake scabbard is a darker shade of green, the metal tip protector is painted black (real is same green as leather). Also, fake scabbard. is about 3/8 inch longer than real. The fake cross guard comes to a fairly sharp point, is quite rounded on real one. The grip screws and nuts on the fake have machining marks on the visible surfaces and stick up out of the wood, while the real ones are polished flush with the wood. ..., there are more small differences, but they are difficult to describe. Note that there have been non blued fakes reported in real scabbards!
Fake 1939 model bayonet
Has SkY markings on ricasso
Makers marks have incorrect spacing and period marks in it. My copy has a made in China sticker on the rear of the scabbard, but once removed you would need to know what to look for to ID as a fake, although it is very obvious when compared to the real thing
Germany 71/84 Sawback -FAKE
Made from an original 71/84 bayonet by machining new saw teeth into the back of the blade, in this case it is a Turkish modified 71/84. The whole range of Imperial German Bayonets had the option of being issued with a sawback (approx 5% of each types production) and are these usually have a significant impact on price. You need to know your blades to identify the fakes,
71/84 with added sawback
Throat damage would indicate that the blade has been in and out often making you think that it is original
Turkish serial numbers on cross guard
The saw back starts too far down the ricasso and has too few teeth to be original
A reworked 44asw bayonet from Eastern Europe with an added double circled SS stamp on the ricasso. These sell regularly for silly prices on EBAY and other auction sites. There are very few accepted SS marked bayonets especially ones marked on standard army issued bayonets - i.e. with WaA's and serials
Fake SS marking applied to a eastern European reworked 44 asw bayonet
Reproduced originally in the 70's the first versions of these had made in Japan in the hilt slot which is an obvious give away, later versions had improved markings. My example came as a "pattern" buy for less than a tenth of the cost of a real item. I am not sure of how to identify the fakes other than by price as I have never had access to an original blade
Dahlgren bayonet for Naval M1861 rifle
Made primarily for re-enactors it is the newness of the scabbard that shows this to be a fake.
Replica of Remington Socket
GERMANY Etched 84/98 -Fantasy
Made in the 70's by a man in the Midlands in England these items continually show up on places like EBAY with provenance from vets claiming they were removed form officers in WWII. The Germans made blades specifically for presentation purposes whilst these blades are all 84/98 issue blades, typically with makers marks and serials. Markings are always desirable, being for Afrika Korps, and various SS units (mine is a Dachau based unit) and bands, and they are beautifully done. The original blades were from Czechoslovakia and hand picked for ultimate quality, later versions used less perfect blades and it shows.
It is easy to tell these as fantasy pieces as the Germans didn't make any like this! if you would like to provide me with images of visions of this blade you have i would like to provide some idea as to the range of markings applied
Fantasy etched 84/98 with spurious SS commemorative markings. Lettering is raised and polished over blued finish
SS Fantasy Blade based on Standard Mauser Blade
SS Fantasy Blade based on Standard Mauser Blade
SS Fantasy Blade based on Standard Mauser Blade
Fantasy etched 84/98 with spurious SS commemorative markings. Lettering is raised and polished over blued finish, these were apparently made in th e60's by a dealer in chesterfield
|A short sword blade simialr to a UK 1907 welded onto a cut down socket, coudl CB be Columbia pictures?|
FRENCH 1892 - FAKE
In order to increase the value of 1892's rare manufacturers marks have been added to the spine, as these are added to an original blade then you must take great care as to the style and location of the marks, and evidence of polishing or deliberate aging. Post 94 blades were not marked
GERMAN CRANKHANDLE - FAKE
A WWI Ersatz bayonet that is a common fake. The markings, the frog and the frog press stud are all incorrect Original versions were painted grey in general fakes are blued. The press stud should have indentations in the top, the fakes have modern unmarked press studs (very easy identifier), the fake has a much longer frog than the fake as well
Duisberg Demag (fake)
|AUSTRIA ERSATZ - FAKE|
|Very well made Austrian 1895 ersatz, if the condition didn't give it away the INDA on the crossguard would. Brought back from Afghanistan by US trooper|
SAW BACKS - FAKE added 20/08/2002
Saw backed bayonets tend to be more collectable than their plane backed brethren and as such are worth more. Their collectablity stems from their relative rarity (German sawbacks only accounted for approximately 5% of the total number of blades made of any model). Since many sawbacked blades were made in plane backed version, fakers often just cut new teeth into what was originally a plane blade.
These fakes can be very hard to detect as many of them are made to the original specifications on proper machines. The blueing on the teeth may be a give away, the start and stop of the teeth or the number of the teeth can also tell you, the best bet is the weight as a fake blade will weigh less than the plane blade it was made from, the original sawbacks weighed the same or more originally. The sample below is a clearly faked blade as these are not saw teeth, rather they are gear teeth. The best thing is to know your blades and if the deal is too good, ask your self why?
A fantasy piece based on a Belgian FN24 I believe, the Mauser ricasso mark is clearly cold stamped on the finished blade rather than the original hot stamped method used by Mauser. The spine stampings although superficially good, they are clearly incorrect with the inspection mark being completely incorrect.
I have provided comparison pictures with both the 98/05 and the Jugo 24b the later being what many buyers on EBAY have assumed the item to be (a rare 24b sawback), it shows the completely different saw tooth profile (fantasy has over 60 teeth). Note also the longer blade length of the fantasy piece.
Even the scabbard is different being shorter and wider than that of the Jugo bayonets.
This example came out of Afghanistan, where it had been in storage for over 30 years.
This sawback has been faked poorly using gear cutting tooling, it is obviously nothing like any saw backs used on original bayonet models
Extrema Ratio - FAKE
Any blade that is collectable and expensive is prey for Faking, this Extrema Ration copy is actually very good, the most obvious give away is the emery paper sharpener
|Chinese copy of the Italian extreme ration bayonet, most obvious give away is the cheap piece of emery instead of a diamond polisher on the real thing|
FANTASY Different blades sold as bayonets for the AK47 rifle or M16
VZ24 with added sawback, many of these are coming out of Afghanistan at the moment
UK No4 socket with an SKS blade welded on, these were made up as conversation pieces by the father of Denis "Otto" Ottobre (www.ebayonet.com)
Interesting long bladed M4 style bayonet, with a small muzzle ring. Scabbard on this is an original Australian Owen scabbard
Interesting three sided spike bayonet with M16 type fixing but too small a muzzle ring to be used on that weapon. Edges of the flutes were very sharp, and blade much larger in diameter than the normal spike type blades. This blade is similar to late pattern Chinese spike bayonets that are widely available
Sold as "Rare Chinese PLA Bayonet for 56 Rifle *Knife*", this uses a blade similar to the T81 Chinese AK bayonet
Pommel has a slot and a working press stud but would not mount on an AK
Twin fullers as seen on the latest Chinese bayonets
Short blade sold as for the AK, leather scabbard is similar to Finish scabbards and pre WWII period Chinese ones
Blade marked as AK47 CCCP
Again pommel slot with working button but which would not mount, press stud is very crude
Long version has a blade similar to the Arisaka and UK 1907 blade
Hilts are the same on the long and short versions, but the cross guard is different
Long and short compared for length
A spurious US M9 model with long blade
A very poor copy of the US 1905, this would never pass off as a real 1905