FAKES, REPRODUCTION and FANTASY

Hopefully you may be able to use this page to identify a fake and save you a financial loss, or at least warn you of those blades that may not be what they are reported to be. The list is not comprehensive and relates only to those blades in my collection or those identified to me by fellow collectors.

FAKES

As the value of some blades gets higher it becomes worth while for people to deliberately fake particularly valuable ones using added markings or converting others to resemble a more valuable one.  I only include in these pieces which are deliberately made to deceive collectors.  examples of this are :

 

 

-No4 MkI

-Saw back additions to Imperial German blades

-UK Kukri

-UK Quillioned 1907

-Vivian Carbine

-UK Sten

-UK No 5 MkI

-Finnish M39

-remarked French 1892's,

-German DEMAG crankhandle

-Remanufactured SG42's

- 84/98 SS marked

-Sawback additions

- Japanese Arisaka

- JAPAN Type 100 (Chinese made)

-1905

REPRODUCTION

Reproduction items are made to be replicas of valuable or collectable bayonets. These are not meant to deceive collectors rather to allow them to have a representative item in their collection that would otherwise be beyond their means to have (or is very rare), or for re-enactors or film work. Most reproductions are of items that have intrinsic display appeal, and are of sword type blades or historic items.

Many of these will come back on the market as an attempt to deceive people into believing that they are the real thing, especially the early ones which now have a substantial amount of aging to them. Examples of this:

-British 1870 ELCHO

-British Naval Boarding

-British Farquhar

-US Dahlgren

-US Remington Socket

-UK Quillioned 1907

-UK Baker Sword

-UK Pritchard Green

-Various American Civil War blades

FANTASY

These are blades made up to represent blades that were never made. They come from the imagination of the maker but are based on models available at the time. They are usually only made in singletons or in very low numbers, as they are made for the maker or his client, they may or may not have been made to deceive collectors but were probably not. examples

 

German 84/98 Dress blades

Series of blades sold as AK47 bayonets

US M9

 If you have examples of fakes or know of any that are not mentioned on this page please let me know and I will include them

(more to come) Note:- click on image for larger version of images

 

UK No4 MkI - (Fake)

Machined from original No4 MkII's it is not that hard to identify these fakes.

Blade point

Original Blade is pointed, whilst the later versions had a screwdriver tip, if the tip has been reshaped the length of the blade will be incorrect.

Markings

Original markings are ground out so look for signs of polishing.

Remarked examples often lack the G crown R marking, or are incorrectly placed.

Look for markings on press stud etc. which have not been replaced

Grooves

Often ground the grooves are often not uniform or cleanly finished

Finish

The colour and depth of the finish is often wrong on the fake, they may also smell heavily of the chemicals used in chemical blueing, the originals are oil blued

No 4 fake (upper) made from Savage made No4 MkII (Savage mark still evident on button.

 

Comparison of Pommels, showing over large and inverted fake markings

 

Screw Driver point on fake blade, plus slightly shorter overall length

 

 

Poor quality of groove machining (ground) on fake

 

UK VIVIAN CARBINE -Fantasy

Again there is no scabbard to this bayonet. It would appear that this may be a Fantasy piece as opposed to a reproduction as I can find no reference to a blade like this, although there was a similar bayonet made for the Irish Constabulary with a different blade shape. The finish on this blade identifies it as a modern reproduction, the screws and fittings are poorly made and the "aging" shows too regular a pattern to impact marks.

UK vivian Carbine.jpg (58617 bytes)UK vivian Carbine Pommel.jpg (71378 bytes)

Vivian Carbine Bayonet for the Vivian double barrelled carbine. Maybe this should hold the title of the first knife bayonet

 

modern stamps on pommel

 

Baker style bayonet mount and regular impact marks on modern made

 

UK FARQUHAR HILL   - FAKE

An experimental semi automatic rifle trialed during the 20's used a reduced length 1907 pattern bayonet and scabbard. Fakes of this are available although often mis identified as fighting knives etc. the blade may have the wrong dates to be correct for the trial (should be pre 1924), and are typically 5mm short of the actual length of the true blade (165mm). Uses a cut down 1907 scabbard

French converted UK 1907 fighting knife.jpg (105531 bytes)

Cut down 1907  Farquhar Hill Fake

 

UK No 5 MkI -FAKE

The first model of this bayonet came with the hilt panels attached by a single screw and are very rare. Fakes are easily made by replacing the grips with new ones with a single screw, without removing the grips you need to examine very carefully the grips and screw to ensure that they are original, if you can remove the grips then look for the presence of the original two screw holes that should not be there

 

No example

 

UK KUKRI - Fantasy

Made from a Kukri blade and a Brown Bess socket welded together. This blade was originally shown in Watts and White in the 70's as a genuine article it was later shown to be a fake, that has since been reproduced. The real "Kukri" bladed bayonets have a much straighter blade and are heavily marked by the Nepalese

UK Kukri.jpg (52357 bytes)

Kukri style bayonet

Recently there has come onto the market a better reproduction of the Kukri bayonet, this one is close to the original in style etc. the biggest giveaway is the machined hatching and the welded socket. give this a suitable aging process and the unsuspecting woudl not doubt it.

Modern copy of a Nepalese Kukhri bayonet, this is based on the real bayonet and not the fantasy piece found in Watts and White etc. Be wary of these coming on the market aged.

Points of note are machine cross hatching and welding on the shank 

 

UK 1907 QUILLION -Reproduction/Fake

I have put down reproduction and fake as I believe that both version exist. Mine I believe to be a reproduction made for the film industry as opposed to a fake made to fool collectors. The Fake would be a pre 1913 made original that had originally been made with a quillion, that was reworked to replace the quillion that would have been removed during rework after 1913 (maybe you could call this a restoration). The points to look out for are:

Oil holes in pommel

 Not introduced till after quillions were removed

Date marks on blade

Made after 1913 or reworked after 1913 should not be quillioned

Ricasso markings

Lack of ricasso marks could indicate that they were removed to hide the origin of the blade

Finish

Blade should be bright finished with a blue ricasso, anything else should not have a quillion

Welding

Obvious signs of welding on the quillion would indicate a fake.

 

Fake quillion 1907, based on a 1944 Admiralty contract blade (quillions ceased in 1913!) Possibly made for the film Gallipoli, as many were made for this film

 

WSC 1944 markings and quillion

 

JAPAN Type 100 (Chinese made)

Fake paratrooper bayonet, appears to attempt to be a Japanese type 100

 

Marked with 1917

 

and US marking

 

 

Crude pommel

 

Scabbard is apparently marked with para wings  over a star, not sure what the markings are meant to represent

 

Scabbard is also marked with a US-M8 marking. Amazing piece

 

Japan Arisaka

A Chinese copy of the Arisaka, these are not the same as the communist era Arisaka's made in the old Japanese arsenals, they are very poor quality and have spurious copies of Japanese mainland arsenal marks

 

FINNISH M39-FAKE

The following is based on information posted on the Yahoo club on Bayonet Collecting by collector Gammacoupe

The fake is blued. The Finns did not blue any M39 bayonets. Fake is 11.75 inches long, real one is 11.5. The locking bolt on fake doesn't fit the hole in the pommel anywhere near as well as the real one. The left side of the real ricasso is stamped O.Y.VELJEKSETKULMALAA.B. (note the 4 periods, after first 2 and last 2 letters). The fake doesn't have the periods, the letters are larger (the O and the B actually hang off either edge of the blade, the whole stamping is too long). The letters on the real one are both smaller and more distinct. The fake scabbard is a darker shade of green, the metal tip protector is painted black (real is same green as leather). Also, fake scabbard. is about 3/8 inch longer than real. The fake cross guard comes to a fairly sharp point, is quite rounded on real one. The grip screws and nuts on the fake have machining marks on the visible surfaces and stick up out of the wood, while the real ones are polished flush with the wood. ..., there are more small differences, but they are difficult to describe. Note that there have been non blued fakes reported in real scabbards!

Fake 1939 model bayonet

 

Has SkY markings on ricasso

 

Makers marks have incorrect spacing and period marks in it. My copy has a made in China sticker on the rear of the scabbard, but once removed you would need to know what to look for to ID as a fake, although it is very obvious when compared to the real thing

 

Germany 71/84 Sawback -FAKE

Made from an original 71/84 bayonet by machining new saw teeth into the back of the blade, in this case it is a Turkish modified 71/84. The whole range of Imperial German Bayonets had the option of being issued with a sawback (approx 5% of each types production) and are these usually have a significant impact on price. You need to know your blades to identify the fakes,

 Weight

the original sawbacks did not weigh less - often they weighed more -than the non-sawback versions

Number of teeth

the original blades had a specific number of teeth, fakes may have different numbers

Markings

Sawback may impinge on the spine markings. Many makers only made sawbacks of certain versions or between certain dates, there is no substitute here for buying the books and studying them, they can save you a fortune

Finish

Re bluing of teeth can leave colour differences or leave that chemical smell

 

71/84 with added sawback

 

Throat damage would indicate that the blade has been in and out often making you think that it is original

 

 

Turkish serial numbers on cross guard

 

The saw back starts too far down the ricasso and has too few teeth to be original

 

GERMANY 84/98 (Fake)

A reworked 44asw bayonet from Eastern Europe with an added double circled SS stamp on the ricasso. These sell regularly for silly prices on EBAY and other auction sites. There are very few accepted SS marked bayonets especially ones marked on standard army issued bayonets - i.e. with WaA's and serials

Fake SS marking applied to a eastern European reworked 44 asw bayonet

 

USA 1861 DAHLGREN

Reproduced originally in the 70's the first versions of these had made in Japan in the hilt slot which is an obvious give away, later versions had improved markings. My example came as a "pattern" buy for less than a tenth of the cost of a real item. I am not sure of how to identify the fakes other than by price as I have never had access to an original blade

 

US dalgren.jpg (57803 bytes)

Dahlgren bayonet for Naval M1861 rifle

 

USA Remington

Made primarily for re-enactors it is the newness of the scabbard that shows this to be a fake.

Russia Mosin Nagant.jpg (51639 bytes)

Replica of Remington Socket

 

GERMANY Etched 84/98 -Fantasy

Made in the 70's by a man in the Midlands in England these items continually show up on places like EBAY with provenance from vets claiming they were removed form officers in WWII. The Germans made blades specifically for presentation purposes whilst these blades are all 84/98 issue blades, typically with makers marks and serials. Markings are always desirable, being for Afrika Korps, and various SS units (mine is a Dachau based unit) and bands, and they are beautifully done. The original blades were from Czechoslovakia and hand picked for ultimate quality, later versions used less perfect blades and it shows.

It is easy to tell these as fantasy pieces as the Germans didn't make any like this! if you would like to provide me with images of visions of this blade you have i would like to provide some idea as to the range of markings applied

Fantasy etched 84/98 with spurious SS commemorative markings. Lettering is raised and polished over blued finish

Germany_hilt_SS_Fake.jpg (145010 bytes)

SS Fantasy Blade based on Standard Mauser Blade

 

SS Fantasy Blade based on Standard Mauser Blade

 

SS Fantasy Blade based on Standard Mauser Blade

Fantasy etched 84/98 with spurious SS commemorative markings. Lettering is raised and polished over blued finish, these were apparently made in th e60's by a dealer in chesterfield

 

 

Blade Socket
SOCKET
Total length = 528 mm                  Blade length =  450Blade width = 25 MRD = 20
 A short sword blade simialr to a UK 1907 welded onto a cut down socket, coudl CB be Columbia pictures? 

 

FRENCH 1892 - FAKE

In order to increase the value of 1892's rare manufacturers marks have been added to the spine, as these are added to an original blade then you must take great care as to the style and location of the marks, and evidence of polishing or deliberate aging. Post 94 blades were not marked

 

no example

 

GERMAN CRANKHANDLE  - FAKE

A WWI Ersatz bayonet that is a common fake. The markings, the frog  and the frog press stud are all incorrect Original versions were painted grey in general fakes are blued. The press stud should  have indentations in the top, the fakes have modern unmarked press studs (very easy identifier), the fake has a much longer frog than the fake as well

Germany Demag.jpg (62969 bytes)

Duisberg Demag (fake)

 

AUSTRIA ERSATZ - FAKE
Very well made Austrian 1895 ersatz, if the condition didn't give it away the INDA on the crossguard would. Brought back from Afghanistan by US trooper

 

SAW BACKS  - FAKE added 20/08/2002

Saw backed bayonets tend to be more collectable than their plane backed brethren and as such are worth more. Their collectablity stems from their relative rarity (German sawbacks only accounted for approximately 5% of the total number of blades made of any model). Since many sawbacked blades were made in plane backed version, fakers often just cut new teeth into what was originally a plane blade.

These fakes can be very hard to detect as many of them are made to the original specifications on proper machines. The blueing on the teeth may be a give away, the start and stop of the teeth or the number of the teeth can also tell you, the best bet is the weight as a fake blade will weigh less than the plane blade it was made from, the original sawbacks weighed the same or more originally. The sample below is a clearly faked blade as these are not saw teeth, rather they are gear teeth. The best thing is to know your blades and if the deal is too good, ask your self why?

A fantasy piece based on a Belgian FN24 I believe, the Mauser ricasso mark is clearly cold stamped on the finished blade rather than the original hot stamped method used by Mauser. The spine stampings although superficially good, they are clearly incorrect with the inspection mark being completely incorrect.

I have provided comparison pictures with both the 98/05 and the Jugo 24b the later being what many buyers on EBAY have assumed the item to be (a rare 24b sawback), it shows the completely different saw tooth profile (fantasy has over 60 teeth). Note also the longer blade length of the fantasy piece.

Even the scabbard is different being shorter and wider than that of the Jugo bayonets.

This example came out of Afghanistan, where it had been in storage for over 30 years.

This sawback has been faked poorly using  gear cutting tooling, it is obviously nothing like any saw backs used on original bayonet models

 

Extrema Ratio  - FAKE

Any blade that is collectable and expensive is prey for Faking, this Extrema Ration copy is actually very good, the most obvious give away is the emery paper sharpener

   Chinese copy of the Italian extreme ration bayonet, most obvious give away is the cheap piece of emery instead of a diamond polisher on the real thing 

 

 FANTASY Different blades sold as bayonets for the AK47 rifle or M16

VZ24 with added sawback, many of these are coming out of Afghanistan at the moment

UK No4 socket with an SKS blade welded on, these were made up as conversation pieces by the father of Denis "Otto" Ottobre (www.ebayonet.com)

Interesting long bladed M4 style bayonet, with a small muzzle ring. Scabbard on this is an original Australian Owen scabbard

Interesting three sided spike bayonet with M16 type fixing but too small a muzzle ring to be used on that weapon. Edges of the flutes were very sharp, and blade much larger in diameter than the normal spike type blades. This blade is similar to late pattern Chinese spike bayonets that are widely available

Sold as "Rare Chinese PLA Bayonet for 56 Rifle *Knife*", this uses a blade similar to the T81 Chinese AK bayonet

 

 

Distinctive Hilt

 

Pommel has a slot and a working press stud but would not mount on an AK

 

Twin fullers as seen on the latest Chinese bayonets

Short blade sold as for the AK, leather scabbard is similar to Finish scabbards and pre WWII period Chinese ones

 

 

Blade marked as AK47 CCCP

 

Again pommel slot with working button but which would not mount, press stud is very crude

 

Hilt

 

Long version has a blade similar to the Arisaka and UK 1907 blade

Hilts are the same on the long and short versions, but the cross guard is different

 

 

Long and short compared for length

A  spurious US M9 model with long blade

 

1905

A very poor copy of the US 1905, this would never pass off as a real 1905